I can assure not only Mr. Bhupesh Gupta, but also every other Member of this House that none of us was deceived. We know. I am not disclosing the discussions with Dr. Kissinger, because that is not done. But I would like to tell this honourable House and the country that when we decided to sit down and discuss with them, we really wanted to find out what are the perceptions, intentions, of the Americans in Asia, in the sub-continent, in South East Asia, in the Gulf countries. What are their intentions about certain positive processes that they have started in this part of the world? What exactly is the significance of the understanding of the new type of relationship that was built in Asia with China? Is it an understanding between U. S. and China? If it is, then it is good, because we wanted their relations to be good. But we certainly wanted to know whether it is going to be at the cost of any other nation, particularly this country. So we started those discussions. We wanted to understand as to what exactly is the position. Now I think it is a known fact that what Mr. Kissinger told us, what he made public in his statements. We have also let it known. Anyhow, it seems that they are taking wrong decisions at wrong times or possibly right decisions at wrong times. I do not know what it is. But they decided, and I think it is a good thing that they decided before I went there. Otherwise if immediately after my going to Washington the decision was taken, it would have lead to a greater sense of disappointment or greater sense of being cheated - I am glad to use a wrong word rather that way. Therefore, in that sense we are not deceived.

The point is, what are we to do? We still want mature relationship with all countries. We want mature relationship with the U. S. A. We want mature realistic relationship with all the countries. What we are trying to say is not merely a verbal protest, as my hon’ble friend, Mr. Subramnian Swamy, is afraid to say. What we are trying to show is the fallacies of the policies that have been followed by these big powers. The arguments that they have given in support of what they have done are untenable, invalid ....

Shri Bhupesh Gupta : Outrageous.

Shri Y B. Chavan : Well, this is the way we use a word, and their incredibility is likely to be accepted in this country. And this is what T. N. Kaul says. Now let us take it argument by argument. They say, “We are in a very curious position. Here is our ally to whom the other countries are giving weapons.” And then he said that they did not give weapons. This is a rather very absurd  argument that has been made for the last so many years by American statesmen, from President Eisenhower down to Mr. Kissinger, of the present Administration. Then they say that they wanted us to be their friends. Well, these two things -’ look rather contradictory.

They are also having friendship with China and they are also having detente. They want friendship with Russia and they also want friendship with India. Then they want Pakistan as an ally. Ally against whom? They are very intelligent people and I am entitled to ask them this question. You want Pakistan as your ally, but ally against whom?

Shri Bhupesh Gupta : What did you say ?

Shri Y B. Chavan : The other point is that Dr. Kissinger publicly said that they are not interested and they will not encourage arms race. Now they lift the embargo and tell us that they would like to supply arms to Pakistan in the interest of security to keep the strategic balance. Is it not encouraging the arms race? If not, what is it? Either you words have no meaning or those people who talk and those people who listen do not understand. I really do not understand. It is very difficult. They said Pakistan feels insecure. Well, that is the subjective feeling of a country. But you must put some objective test for it. As a matter of fact, after the liberation of Bangladesh, Pakistan may have contracted in its territory, but Pakistan has become more compact form the security point of view. From the point of view of arms strength, from the point of view of man-power, Pakistan is more powerful today than it was in 1971. It is a fact.